From: Subject: [WFRP:1445] Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, Neutrality The question has been asked "Can Neutral demons exist?" and much discussion has been written lately about the relationship of Law and Chaos. However, answers like Ian's (below) miss the mark. The short answer to "Can Neutral demons exist?" is no. Chaos is the natural state of the Universe. Demons, like their Gods, are simply outward manifestations of the Universe trying to make sense of itself. There is, somewhere in the Universal mind, a desire towards Order. It requires Order to manifest something from Chaos, to image a God of Disease, for example, or a Demon of Pleasure. While there is sufficient energy in the Universe to manifest Order, Chaos decreases and a structured, physical Universe evolves. But at some point, the energy required to manifest Order lessens, and Chaos returns. Entropy breaks down the physical order into component parts, returning everything to Mother Chaos. Order, therefore, is also a natural state of the Universe, albeit weaker and more fragile than the Mother Chaos. Order is the mortal daughter of Mother Chaos, destined to spurt forth, blossom, build, stagnate, decay, and die. In the Universe, there is nothing else but these two. This is Natural. Good, Evil, and Neutral are not manifestations of the Universe, which consists solely of Chaos and Order, but manifestations of the Temporal Mind. Good and Evil are completely artificial, completely unnatural, completely intellectual, totally temporal. Universal things are beyond the simple names of Good or Evil. Neutrality is the absence of the artificial, the acceptance of the Universe as it is, the surrender of the Intellect to the Natural. The Neutral does not name, for that which is named is lost and intelligible. The Neutral can do what must be done, unfettered by the names of Good or Evil. In this way, the Neutral attempts to achieve Balance, a comfortable existence with the Universal Chaos and Order and the Temporal Good and Evil. But remember, Neutral is still Temporal. It is merely the tool the Temporal Intellect uses to achieve Balance, to mimic the Natural, to become more Universal. The Demon, a Universal being, cannot be Neutral anymore than a Man, a Temporal being, can be water. It is simply not its Nature. A man can study water, understand its properties and tendencies, and mimic its behavior, but he cannot change his Nature and become water. The Demon can study Neutral, understand its properties and tendancies, and mimic its behavior, but it cannot change its Nature and become Neutral. What of Neutral gods then? Or Good or Evil gods? What are these? Unnatural, temporal, artificial, intellectual. These gods are manifestations of the Intellectual just as the true gods are manifestations of the Natural. They exist only because the Temporal Intellect names them. When the Temporal Intellect ceases to name them, they cease to exist. The Universal truths return. -- Clay Luther clay@incite.com ---------------------- From: Thomas Oesterlie Subject: [WFRP:1473] Chaos, and The Order of Things I sent herr Philosopher Luther's letter on Chaos to my dear friend herr Baron Valtor Zimmerman von Schunberger. The baron is a practitioner of the Art of Necromancy, and devotes his time to the research of Death. I've included the Baron's reply to the Philosopher's letter for your reference: ---Begin inclusion--- Greetings Herr Lord Archivator. Blessed by thy name, and hallowed be thy family and dearest. I received your most enjoyable letter the other day. As always, it is a joy to hear from you. You included a discurs of Chaos by herr Philosopher Luther, wishing to hear my thoughts on the subject. In my recluse I have grown unused to setting my own thoughts to paper, but I hope you will forgive my ineptednes as I will piece down some scattered thoughts on the topic. Although herr Philosopher Luther's letter about the Order of Things was one of the more marvellous litterary pieces I have read recently, I am afraid that he is somewhat wrong. To be quite frank: he is totally wrong. We are all of Chaos. Thus far herr Philosopher is correct. Chaos is another Realm of Being, and Magick is the art of opening gates to this other Realm. My own research has led me to draw the conlusion that Man is able to manipulate Chaos because we are of Chaos. Not of Chaos Matter, but the Spirit that we all possess, is an immortal being of Chaos. The Spirit is immortal. As Man dies, his Spirit - now devoid of memories which are part of the Physique - lingers on in the Material Realm for a time. Confused by lack of memory, it begins it's journey back to whence it came: Chaos. It is in these few minutes or - sadly - only mere seconds, that a Master of the Art of Necromancy, may bind the Spirit to the body, creating Life in spite of Death in the Being. When the immortal Spirit returns to Chaos, it's Deity creates a personal purgatory for the Spirit, protecting it from other denizens of the Warp. Spirits of unbelievers are prayed upon as they are unprotected. Thus you can see the why we believe in Gods. Speaking of Deities, I've come to the conclusion of my view of Chaos. The question was: can Neutral Daemons exist, and are Daemons just beings of the Chaos waiting to become Gods. I am - unlike herr Philosopher Luther, I believe - not a practitioner of the dangerous Art of Daemonology, but I believe I have enough evidence to state that Gods and Daemons are the same, yet unlike. They are both denizens of Chaos, just as the Peasant and Emperor Heinrich are both denizens of the Material Realm. But Gods and Daemons are not the same, just as the Peasant and Emperor Heinrich are not the same. In the same way as a Peasant may become Emperor - as Sigmar once did - may the Daemon become a God. Whether or not a Daemon may be neutral or not is an easy question to answer. As herr Philosopher Luther beautifully explained: Good, Evil and Neutral are all moral judgments made by Man, not a state of Being. Daemons are Beings of Chaos, as Men are Material. Your devoted friend in Life and Death Baron Valtor Zimmerman von Schunberger ---End inclusion--- Thomas Oesterlie toaster@pvv.unit.no Maintainer of the Warhammer Archives ------------------------------------------------------------- PVV - The Software Workshop, University of Trondheim, Norway ---------------------------- From: matthew@te.rl.ac.uk (Matthew Bassett (Ext. 6571)) Subject: [WFRP:1495] Re: Chaos, and The Order of Things (and a mention of law). This parchment recently arrived at my domicile. Since it seems to be pertinant to the ongoing discussion I have taken the liberty of posting it to the list. I believe the author to be one Heironymous Lentz, a rather arrogant and unpleasant Physicians Apprentice I once argued with in Nuln. Hopefully the parties mentioned will bear him no ill will for his missuse of them, for I would not like to think that I had been partly responsible for his transformation into "a pool of animated slurry", which he seems to believe Daemonologists capable of. --- Included Message --- Salutations Colleague Matthew, Whilst carrying a message from Nuln to Altdorf recently, I became somewhat befuddled in that famed coaching Inn, The Leaping Leper (yes I know it is somewhat off the traditional route from Nuln to Altdorf, but the landlord has a very warming daughter). In my state of merry befuddlement I came to realise that it would be prudent to examine the contents of the message I was carrying for old fuddle chops von Schunberger (why Master Bosch goes to the trouble of purchasing cadavers from him for study, I shall never know, but even after covering all that distance in Ox carts, they always remain more fresh than you would expect). It is, after all, never wise to carry messages from Necromancer to Daemonologist, without first determining whether they will turn you into some undead minion, or a pool of animated slurry - even if both the old fools are drooling into their cups. Imagine my surprise when it turns out that von Schunberger can not only still manipulate a pen sufficiently well to scribe some words, but that the old loon can actually string a sensible arguement together! It seems that he is holding a discourse with Herr Luther (you know, the mad old philosipher, who alledgedly dabbles in daemons) about the nature of chaos. I immediately thought of you, and our similar discussions. You will be glad to know that I have managed to condense my thoughts and will publish them shortly, should Master Bosch not find my manuscripts and use them for lighting the fire again. Before I publish, I thought I would give you one last chance to refute the product of my superior intellect with your paltry protestations: THE NATURE OF THE UNIVERSE The natural, terminal, state of the universe is the formless swirl of chaos, in many ways less "chaotic" than many imagine, being merely a fluid of primal matter with no organisation or potential for such. We are many eons away from such a fate however, and the universe still contains much of the vital energy with which it was imbued at its creation. When first created, the primal matter of the universe took on many and various forms, charged as it was with a vitality we cannot imagine. At first most of these forms were simple, and can be considered merely eddies in the primal fluid. However the early universe was a place of potential, and no possibility was left unrealised. Thus it was merely a question of time and probability before the universe expended vitality on impressing more complex forms upon the primal fluid. These complex forms were the first creatures of the void or the warp. The intellects of these creatures were as varied as the forms they took. Some were completely mindless, and either dissolved back into the void or remained as their forms determined. Some had great power of reasoning, a fraction of whom did seek to return themselves to the void that had birthed them. Others sought greater organisation, and amongst their creations is Space as we know it and the creatures that lie therein. Still others sought not only to return themselves, but all of creation to the primal fluid. Those entities that we know as gods are the most powerful of these creatures of the void - those that had a hand in creating Space. I have placed these entities into three broad classes, but it should be noted that these are not distinct groups, merely a convenient classification of a continuous range. The Gods Of Law The Gods of law are those that sought the greatest intricacy of organisation, and tried to impose a completely deterministic reality devoid of free will. They do not, as some believe, try to prevent all change and impose stasis. Instead they attempt to enforce upon creation laws that entirely regulate it's behaviour, so that nothing that is not part of their design occurs. Some of these laws are extremely complex and may not be understandablle by we mortals, but none the less, these laws rule against our free will. The Gods Of Balance The Gods Of Balance seek a less regimented reality in which their creations may express free will and determine their own path through a world arbited by consistant laws. They seek to provide a framework within which mortals may grow and interact, sometimes creating unpredictable behaviour, which seems to please them as much as the formation of order: such as the creation of nations and governments. The Gods Of Chaos Finally there are the chaos gods, who seek to completely dissolve all organisation back into the primal fluid. The chaos gods are a paradox in that, in order to achieve their objectives they must maintain sufficient organisation to be able to affect reality. Many of these gods had a hand in the creation of Space, some even in the creation of races, such that they might achieve their final ends. Thus Chaos must compromise with some order, in order to return the Universe to it's primal form. The above gives a brief outline of my reasonings on the matter, and is sufficient, I believe, to give some familiarity with the nature of reality without excessively confusing such a miniscule intellect as your own. My regards for your future, sordid and worthless though it may be, and I hope the embarrassing boils have gone down, although I still believe you should have let me lance them. Yours, etc. Soon to be famous Philisopher, Heironymous L. --- End of Included Message --- Well, I'm sure Heironymous L. would welcome any criticism of his 'master work', as I seem to recall him referring to it as. Many regards, _______________________________________________________________________ Matthew Bassett mail: matthew@te.rl.ac.uk Rutherford Appleton Laboratory tel: +44 (0) 1235 446571 "Where's the nearest information super layby?" ------------------------- From: Thomas Oesterlie Subject: [WFRP:1524] The Creation, Gods and Spirits I received this most disturbing letter today. My dear friend Baron Valtor von Schunberger has replied to the letter Matthew Basset sent to the mailinglist the other day. I hope that Matthew can forward this message to Heironymus Lentz, bringing him my apologies for the harsh language the Baron displays. ---Begin included message--- Greetings Lord Archivator. Blessed be thy name, and hallowed be thy family and dearest. While highly interesting, young Lentz' treatise on the Order of Things is quite simply wrong. Not only does he believe that the gods created the Universe, he also implies that they have created everything of what we call Reality. How naive. How very naive. Unfortunately these are quite common views on the Universe. Unfortunately. Gods are no more than entities of the Warp. Strong Spirits if you wish. As I said in my last letter, I have come to see the Order of Things through the eyes of a dying creature slowly coming to terms with the Universe. I have seen that Man is nothing less than a mortal shell for an immortal Spirit. A house for a stranger in a strange world. It is the greatest of these Spirits that Man calls Gods. These Spirits are incapable of manifesting themselves in the Realm of Man. They are, as we all are aware of, able to perform miracles in this world, but that is only through use of Magick (refer to my last letter for a definition of Magick). They are, however, quite incapable of creating living creatures in this, or any other world for that matter. They are, and will continue to be, for all eternity, creatures of the Warp. My dear Lord Archivator, I will be unreachable for a time. I have gotten my hands on a most interesting book, and will therefore leave my dwellings in search of the fabled city of Morgeheim. May peace be with you. Your most affectionate friend and tutor. ---End included message--- Thomas Oesterlie toaster@pvv.unit.no Maintainer of the Warhammer Archives ------------------------------------------------------------- PVV - The Software Workshop, University of Trondheim, Norway ----------------------------- From: matthew@te.rl.ac.uk (Matthew Bassett (Ext. 6571)) Subject: [WFRP:1540] Re: The Creation, Gods and Spirits With regard to Baron Valtor von Schunbergers most enlightened refutation of Heironymous Lentz' theories, the following incident occured to me earlier today: I was attending to some business with some artificers, when I was accosted by a street urchin who handed me a rather badly scribbledn note, before running off. The note asked me to meet `a friend' in the Pilgrims Keller off Konigstrasse. Upon visiting the place I went to the far corner from the bar, as directed by the note, and found none other than Heironymous Lentz skulking over a stein of beer. As soon as I appeared a look of great relief appeared over his wan features. As he rose to greet me I noticed that he carefully kept his right arm covered by his cloak. H. told me his woes: "Much as I appreciate you circulating my letter for comment, it seems that Baron Valtor von Schunberger has taken offense at the way I have presented my theories, and has arranged for me to suffer an inconvenience of sorts. I wonder if you might intercede, on my behalf, and point out to him that I have the utmost respect for him, which may not have been apparent from my letter, and convey to him apologies for any perceived insult." H. appeared most perturbed when I informed him that Baron von Schunberger was departing for unknown regions, and might not be available for some time. At this point I informed him of the Barons refutation, and handed him a copy. He became very animated as he read it, and over a DunkelWeiss he shared his thoughts on the matter with me. I have tried to record our dialogue as accurately as I remember below: "No, no, no. Baron von Schunberger has mistaken my arguement. I maintain that the Gods and the other creatures of the Warp were created by the Universe. Creation, as we know, is just a small portion of the Universe, which was impressed on the primal fluid by the most powerful of these spirits. Perhaps I should have defined my terms more clearly so the old windbag would know what I was on about. Er... don't tell anyone about me calling him a windbag, right?" I considered this, and asked "Could not Creation, as we know it, have arisen from your hypothesized primal fluid in the same fashion as you maintain the Spirits of the Warp did? In fact, could we not consider Space or Creation, to be the physical matter of the mindless entities of the Warp that you put forward in your letter?" H. glanced at me for a moment, his eyes glinting in the dancing candle light. "No you fool, you have made an entirely different mistake. Creation must be an artifact of the Gods, upon which they can effect change, otherwise the struggle between them for control is meaningless and thus inconceivable! They fight over whether or not Creation should be returned to the Primal Flux! "Although," he added "this idea that the Gods cannot create living creatures is interesting. I myself have considered that our spirits, or souls if you like, are immortal entities of the warp, just of much lesser magnitude than those that we call Gods. Perhaps the Gods do not create the immortal soul, but merely fashion the physical shell into which the spirit is drawn? Hm. animals, and lesser people would of course have spirits of even smaller magnitude, and there must be some constraint on the magnitude of spirits that can manifest in Creation, as von Schunberger notes..." At this juncture I pointed out to him the flaw in his arguement, that Gods could fight over returning Creation to the Primal Flux, regardless of whether they had created it, or that they might well be struggling over some entirely different matter of contention. He flew into a rage, and spitting and screaming, and gesticulating as foam dribbled from his incoherent lips, he unintentionally uncovered his right arm. Now I consider myself a man of strong stomach, but what I saw under that cloak revolted me beyond measure and I fled that place blindly. Only just now have I recovered myself enough to put finger to keyboard and scribe these details so that others may see them. I hope that for the sake of regulars in the Pilgrims Keller, that Von Schunberger can be contacted (should it indeed have been him who caused such a revolting infestation), and be persuaded to remove his curse from Heironymous Lentz. Regards, _______________________________________________________________________ Matthew Bassett mail: matthew@te.rl.ac.uk Rutherford Appleton Laboratory tel: +44 (0) 1235 446571 "Where's the nearest information super layby?" ----------------------------- From: uiole@usa.pipeline.com (Steven C. Ihde) Subject: [WFRP:1532] Chaos Before Herr Doktor Johannes Braumbach sticks his foot in his mouth concerning the theory of Chaos (warhammer version), could someone please define it for him? (Total lack of order or what?) ------------------------------ From: Subject: [WFRP:1533] Chaos: A Question and a Fragmentary Answer Dr. Braumbach wishes to know what Chaos is. First, may I say that Chaos IS NOT the "total lack of Order." As Herr Sonnyapfels has postulated before, Order is a child of Chaos, a part of Chaos. Order is that part of Chaos which we perceive. I recently came across a fragment of a manuscript from Herr Augustus Blut. It is not finished, but is interesting nonetheless. I understand that Herr Blut was taken from his room while writing this manuscript and quartered. How the manuscript actually survived, I do not know. I found it under Octavius' Head, Shelf 8, in the Library at Nuln. Manuscript 451 Attributed to Herr Augustus Blut of Talabheim, died 1603 Is Chaos Evil? Are the True Gods utterly inimicable to Mortalkind? Is the Mortal who traffics with the True Gods corrupt? Many of our peers, especially those devoted to the Mortal Gods, would argue that yes is the only answer a sane person could give. In the same breath, this initiate would also proclaim that the True Gods are responsible for all Creation, and doing so must explain how such "evil" beings could create something as "good" as Creation and Life itself. Obviously then, the intelligent man must re-examine the long-held beliefs that Chaos is Evil, that the True Gods seek only to destroy Mortalkind, and that any Mortal who traffics with the True Gods is thereby made evil and corrupt. The Universe is Chaos. In Chaos the Universe began, and so it will return. But the Life of the Universe is what we perceive as Order. Chaos is mutable and infinite, the source of the Immortals. Order is immutable and finite, the source of the Mortals. Life is the boundry between Chaos and Order. It is the mutable finite and the immutable infinite. Life requires Chaos and Order, in more or less equal amounts, to function. The simple-minded are inclined to enforce moral values on the universal poles of Life. Why does this simple-minded Mortal name Chaos Evil? Chaos represents uncertainty. The simple-minded Mortal is adverse to uncertainty. He cannot cope with the unknowable and unpredictable. Since he cannot foresee the outcome of Chaos, he assumes the worst and calls it Evil. But safe, predictable Order, is the refuge of the simple-mind: no complications, no decisions, all structure and no movement. It is no wonder that the simple-mind calls Order Good. But the curious mind begins to see the reverse. Order abhores contradiction, and original thought, the product of the curious mind, creates contradictions! Order would, given free reign, demolish "Good" things like the Universities, games, sports, dances, story-telling, and exploration! Order, given free reign, would create a static world... The manuscript ends there. ------------------------------ From: "Nexus Editrice srl (Roberto Di Meglio)" Subject: [WFRP:1542] De Chaotica Rerum Natura The well-known grimoire De Chaotica Rerum Natura (On the Chaotic Nature of Things), written by the notorious Tilean Demonologist Rupertus Melioriis, was believed to be completely lost after all the copies were burned together with their author in Luccini. However, it seems that fragments were preserved by some apprentice, as recently the following digression on the nature of Chaos and Chaos Gods was found which clearly bring the mark of Melioriis' work (well known for the 'Tilean-ness' of his prose). [Excerpt from De Chaotica Rerum Natura follows:] .. After what has been said, I must come to the conclusion that Chaos Gods are not things of pure Chaos, strange as this may seem to the Unlearned. To be of pure Chaos would mean to lose track of one's own identity completely, as Identity is a function of Order and not of Disorder. But it cannot be denied that the Gods of Chaos do have an Identity, so much so that (unless all we know of them is wildly wrong) we associate them to Lust, Hate, Treachery and Corruption. If this is true (and all I discovered in the centuries I spent to ponder on these matters clearly point in this direction), then we must conclude that what the Chaos Gods actually struggle to do is to preserve their own Identity, to avoid returning to the amorphousness of pure Chaos. How they do this? They achieve this feat by spreading Chaos, their own kind of Chaos, in the Material World. Only the ignorant would believe this a paradox, for it is in the nature of all things that, in order to preserve the Order they have within, they have to spread Disorder without. What Man and all creatures do is to consume, burn, destroy what is around in order to feed themselves, because feeding is necessary to preserve one's identity and health (id est, one's internal order). [A note added to the side of the manuscript by an anonymous reader adds: "As the learned has come to say, to keep entropy low within, entropy in the surrounding must become higher."] While the Chaos Gods partake of the nature of the Warp and not of the Material World, much of the same reasoning applies. By spreading their own peculiar aspect of Chaos around, they in return reinforce their own Identity, and they costantly need to do so, else the amorphousness of Chaos would prevail and they would lose their own consciousness in the Sea of Souls, like a drop of water returning to the ocean. There is an important meaning in this, and if my research is correct, it could change our perception of Chaos forever. Chaos Gods do not want the triumph of Chaos more than we do. They need a Material World to spread Chaos in, else they could not 'feed' their own Identity. If the Material World should become totally engulfed by the Warp, there would be no place to spread the Lust, Hate, Treachery and Corruption they need to survive. However, it is possible that the Chaos Gods are so horribly hungry of their nourishment that they will forgive all caution, devouring everything before realizing they are dooming themselves by doing so. It is said that the stupid Orcs act in this way, by slaughtering all beasts, burning all crops they cannot eat, without realizing that in the end there would be no beast and no crop to feed them. If hungrily the Chaos God will devour our world, then they too shall lose and return to Oblivion, and only Pure Chaos will remain forever and ever... Unless, of course, other worlds exists where Chaos can be spread again... Roberto Di Meglio Nexus Editrice Srl - Via Rosmini 16 55049 Viareggio (LU) Italy Tel +39.584.49748 Fax +39.584.944765 e-mail: nexus.rdm@caen.it ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- KAOS, The Foremost Italian RPG Magazine is on line! We welcome you to our web page: http://www.sincretech.it/KAOS/KaosOnline.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'Tis with our judgement as with our watches: none goes just alike, yet each believes his own. [Alexander Pope] ------------------------ From: mb0796@rtccnh1.serigate.philips.nl My learned friends, your various communications fell into my hand a few days ago, from a friend of mine in the brotherhood of balance and blade (known commonly as the inquisition). I must say that I found your Arguments most entertaining, but feel that such pasttimes are better discarded in adolescence, with other forms of unproductive self gratification. None the less, I found myself unable to put the subject out of my mind, and to this end I am writing to you, in the hope of dispelling some of your more fantastic and dangerous misperceptions. So then, to recapitulate the question is; can neutral demons exist? The first point which apears to require clarification is the confusion between the scientific and religious definitions of Chaos. In science, chaos is a clearly defined and universal phenomena, whose effects can be identified in countless everyday phenomena, and whose behaviour can be explained entirely by the application of mathematics and physics, and more specifically the fields of statistics and entropy. This is chaos with a small c. The effects which are more commonly referred to as chaotic are entirely different. they are the effects arising from the appearance in our universe of matter from another (generically referred to as warpstone). When warpstone is inducted into our universe, for example through one of the polar warp gates, it brings with it the physical laws which apply in the universe from which it originates. Naturally these laws are in general entirely different to those of our own, resulting in behaviour which is utterly inexplicable by our own physical laws. Practically speaking this is manifested in physical mutation, paticularly in living things, in such a way as could never occur in nature. Fortunately, these effects are limited in range by the vast weight of our own physical laws. A far more insiduous problem is that of the spiritual leakage into our own universe. Many philosophers have split man into parts, including the physical and spiritual. If we accept this, and postulate that it is true for all sentient creatures, we can envisage a situation where spiritual matter, that is to say thoughts and feelings is able to leak through the warp gates along side, or possibly incorporated with the solid matter. The possible consequences of this are discussed later. The next important point to consider is the meaning of Law and Chaos, as they are used in religion. It seems to me that law and chaos are one and the same, from the point of view of thier origins, ie from another universe via the warp. The only difference is the manner in which they manifest themselves in our universe. The effect of Chaos is as we have already discussed, random and generally harmful mutation. Law has the inverse effect, in that it inhibits change. Neither of these effects are desireable from the point of view of living things. It is possible that the two extreems represent matter originating from just two different universes, where the rates of entropy are respectively faster and slower. An interesting point is the mentality which is associated with these two kinds of contamination, where individuals become anarchistic or dogmatic in sympathy with the kind of contamination they have suffered. Here we come back to my hypothesis of the influx of spiritual matter. Could it be that peoples minds are altered in parrallel with there bodies, so that the chaos warrior for example becomes violent and unpredictable as his body mutates at random. Another interesting possibility of this hypothesis is its compatability with the most modern theories of magic. It is concievable that this spiritual matter behaves in a way much like the winds of magic This last consideration brings us to the topic of Gods. They are intricately entwined with the war between law and chaos as it is presented by conventional religion. it seems to me that the most likely explanation is tht hte gods to are originally from these other universes wwhich we have discussed, but are sufficiently superior to us that they are able to mave freely through the warp> being from another universe, Gods are not bound by the physical laws of our own universe, which means that they have vast reserves of magical power, permitting them to perform incredible feats in our universe. In there own however, they have under normal circomstances no such powers. It is for this reason that the gods concern themselves with human affairs- In the veneration of worshippers, or the misery of sacrifice, spiritual energy is released to the god to whom it is offered. this spiritual energy is of course from our own universe, which has the equivalent effect elsewhere as warpstone has in our own. From this, a god attains power in its own universe. The approaches used by the gods to acquire this energy are many and varied, and from the point of view of man kind, can be good or bad. This leads me on to another point mentioned in the discourse of my erudite coleagues, as to the position of Neutral Gods. Before we discuss thier existence in general, I should like to suggest that no god worshipped by an intellegent race can be from that races point of view neutral. If the God is not in the broad sence of the word `good`, why would they worship him. Note of course that here we do not mean good as in loyal, charitable etc, but simply a source of power, pride and superiority over others. On this particular point I would like to stress here my opinion that the lady Verena should be classed as Good, as her influence is undeniably good for the human race. The error is in the confusion of neutrality with impartiality, but I digress. Before we go on, it is neccessary to state the position of demons. In line with the the theory which is here presented, their place is obvious. They are simply the less powerful fellows of the gods. If they are able to gather sufficient worship in there own right, they may aspire to become gods themselves. Until then they content themselves with serving a particular god, in return for which service they may be rewarded with some of his power. Finally, to answer the original question, do neutral gods, and there servants neutral demons exist. If we accept the deffinition of neutrality implied by the discussion above, ie that a neutral god is one who has no worshippers among the race making the judgement, then there are indeed many such gods. In fact the question is not what is a gods alignment, but who are its worshippers. However, to answer the question in the trivial sence in which it was asked, ie from the point of view of the average human, the answer is still yes, as there are doubtless countless gods who show no interest in our universe, and are therefore by definition nuetral. There servants the demons must therefore be the same. Before I finish, there is one point which should be cleared up. While in the great scheme of thing a gods alignment cannot be usefully classed, we are human beings, and we must do what is best for our own race. This being the case, it is only right that the worship of powers whose activities are harmfull to mankind (traditionally classed as evil and chaotic) should be proscribed. This being so, I would urge you to give up your unclean ways, andd adopt the worship of powers less harmfull to yourselves and mankind. Well, I hope that my thoughts go some way to giveing you a more profound view of things, and may the lady Verena show you ther error of your ways. I hope that you return to the fold before I meet you in a proffesional capacity, Siegried Schwartzadler, Solicitor of Verena.